The Challenges of Pitching a Traditional Publisher

Hi future authors. This is Lynn “Elikqitie” Smargis, ghostwriter here at Unicorn Publishing Company bringing you another episode of Publishing for Professionals. And today I have a special guest, and I'm really excited to have him on because today my guest is going to be talking about how hard it is to find a traditional publisher. And my guest today is John Graham, and John is an author. His story is a fictionalized version of the second chance philosophy underpinning his nonprofit organization, which is called Good Samaritan Home. It is also everyone's story on some level because his book, titled Running as Fast as I Can, vividly portrays a traumatic period in our history, while grappling with intense emotional and social issues we still face today. It's an epic journey for love and forgiveness, but, most importantly, it is a page-turner story that readers will identify with because it truly is, on some level, everyone's journey. So I'd love to welcome to my show today John Graham. John, welcome to the Publishing for Professionals podcast.

John

01:22

Very glad to be here this morning.

Lynn

01:24

I'm super excited for you to come on here and tell your story, because I'm always telling people how hard it is to get a traditional publisher and a lot of people think a traditional publisher will do all of these fabulous things for them, and I have to explain to them that it won't. But let's first talk about your book Running as Fast as I Can. I talked a little bit about it in the intro and I know you have a story behind your book. So first of all, tell us what is your book. Is it fiction, nonfiction? And then, why did you decide to write it?

John

01:55

I was going to write a story 50 years ago when I was living in my truck and traveling the country trying to do a Jacques Kerouac type of blue highway approach, and I found out that you can't live like that. I had a Royal typewriter in the back of the truck but I had nothing to say, so I put it away and I went through a series of detours over the next 30 years trying to find where I fit, and at 53, I founded Good Samaritan Home as a place for second chances. It's a nonprofit, but we work primarily with men and women coming from prison who need a second chance. But what happened was I found that even though I hadn't been to prison, I understood from my background their need for a second chance. They were just more extreme and we live in a culture that, legally and morally, we say we believe in second chances. But the truth is that, particularly in today's harsh political climate, we don't give many second chances. And so we started Good Samaritan Home, thinking it would be welcomed in the community. But we were met with horrendous blowback from all levels, from the neighborhood to the city council, all the way up the food chain, and it took us years. It was a violent blowback. I had police protection at one point because in fact somebody stabbed me in front of the courthouse. So it was a holy moly, because the idea was you're bringing those people, and those people are always laden with race, of course, and even though the numbers in prison are predominantly white, emotionally we don't believe that white communities we believe those people are others who don't look like us believe that in white communities, we believe those people are others who don't look like us. And so we had to work very slowly and very delicately to win the community.

03:55

What I found was that if I present data and say here's recidivism proof that we are a benefit to community, nobody gives a damn. They don't hear data. So what I started doing was writing newspaper columns, fun columns, story columns, trying to tell stories about second chances, and that that was. I found that you can gather more support with honey than you can with vinegar, because people hear stories. That's why television is so popular.

04:21

So what I decided to do and this was well into Good Samaritan Home well, past all the negative, I sat down at age 65 and started writing the story. I started to write 50 years earlier and it was. It became yes, it was based to a degree on my journey, but it was not an autobiography. It's a fictional story of Daniel Robinson coming from abuse and neglect and poverty, and how he journeys to find connection. He's constantly needing a second chance because he doesn't have the structure. It's a story for those of us who are born I call it born in the wild wild. We're left to ourselves and we just don't know what to do and we make mistakes, particularly those of us who have a degree. We think we're smarter, and we but we're not equipped. That's the problem we're. We're too smart, but not nearly skilled enough, and so we end up making more bad choices. So what? What I found with the story?

05:25

I kept writing, and writing, and writing and after about seven years I had this tome that I thought would be a New York Times bestseller. So I started soliciting agents and I was very methodical, because I'm trained as a journalist, so I know how to pursue a story. And I pursued agents and I was met with a resounding sound of silence. I had 200 rejections from the literary agents. I mean, it was resounding.

05:59

cumentary. How do you take an: 1864

07:53

The reports coming back from the readers is that they couldn't stop reading it because they felt it was their story and I was extremely pleased with the response. And I've been looking at the data of what happens with traditional publishing. And on a good day, if you sell 500 copies of your novel in traditional publishing, that's the norm. Most books don't sell the millions you think. Only John Grisham does, kristen Hanna does, but they are anomalies. You may have a great story but it's all about getting it out there in the public and that takes work and it takes passion and my publicist taught me how to be passionate. So I'm all over Facebook. I've learned to speak TikTok. My, my granddaughters had taught me how to do it. That's awesome.

08:45

You know, I've learned, I'm constantly learning how to publicize and speak Amazon ad. How do I speak TikTok ad? Uh, and the end result was that we've won 33 awards for literary excellence with the book. And, uh, and here's the best part I haven't gotten rich, but we've sold 12,000 copies, and that means that we're far, far ahead of what the New York agents would have done.

09:16

So the most important thing, lynn, is that we've generated conversations, not about the book, but it's about second chances, and the book has been a jumping point for me to talk about the current political climate and how much hostility we have towards denying people a new chance, a second chance. If we call them immigrants, if we say they don't look like us and they have a foreign language or a foreign religion, then we are afraid of them. We call them rapists and murderers, and the truth is that we were all and we are all immigrants, and that's what makes us great, is that melting pot, and that's Daniel's story. The idea is that all of us have a limp, all of us are broken on some level, but if we have a second chance and with community, we can walk normal. By doing this, leaning on one another, that's why.

10:15

I think it's resonated.

Lynn

10:18

Yeah, that's a really important social message, I think. Absolutely, on a lot of different levels, because, yeah, all of us have made mistakes, right, and some of us have made bigger mistakes than others. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a second chance. And I think to your point you were saying earlier, a lot of people embrace the feeling of, yes, we should give people a second chance, but then when it comes in their backyard they don't want to do it. They think, oh, we should have a second chance in someone else's backyard, kind of deal.

10:45

But yeah, I think if we're going to really thrive as a community, we need to really embrace everyone, not just the people we want to embrace, right, because that's part of our community. Those people are still part of our community and so we need to embrace them and support them the best we can to help them be their best, and that's how a good society works. But I have a ton of questions for you, because, oh my gosh, all of these things you threw out were just so amazing gems. So first of all, I want to go back, because you said you were rejected 200 times by different publishers, so so I just want to go back and just kind of fill in some, some questions here. So that means that you actually wrote a book proposal and then you actually sent that to 200 different publishers and they all said no.

John

11:31

Yes, most of them didn't even bother to respond, but I would say 95 wrote back and said sorry, charlie.

Lynn

11:43

So when they responded back to you, did they tell you specifically why they rejected your book, like they didn't like the editing or the storyline or the character development?

John

11:51

No, never you get it, because the agents are so flooded with query letters that they have this pot to answer and it doesn't meet our needs or it's not what we're looking for. And they never say you wrote badly. They never say you're a bad writer, they simply say it doesn't meet our needs. It's like the old George Costanza thing it's not you, it's me.

Lynn

12:16

Right, and so. So you said. So how long did it take you to write a book proposal and send out 200 different pitches to publishers?

John

12:27

I started when the first draft was done after three years of writing. So that's when I started and, ironically, on my first query letter I studied how to do a query letter because it's a very precise science and they're very adamant about length and what you should include. It's extremely anal and you go over and over and over and say did I put the wrong word there? Did I use a conjunction? Should I have used a colon there? You super analyze and you're so studying on the tree, you forget the forest.

Lynn

13:01

Right, it sounds like it would drive me crazy to have to be that analytical about my work.

John

13:05

Oh, and that's what it is. And then it's not so much your work anymore, it's it's. You're trying to pitch in 300 words or less. Your whole life is coming down to one page because this agent in New York is sitting in this office. She's 24 years old, she's never even heard of Vietnam and you spent five chapters dealing with that whole trauma. And you spent five chapters dealing with that whole trauma and she says that can't happen because I've never heard of that. Yeah, I had one chapter on Kent State shootings Daniel was involved in that and the agent looked and said that's not possible. That never happened. What Sweetheart.

Lynn

13:45

I was there. I know that because I remember seeing that on the news as a kid.

John

13:50

It was a big deal, big deal, it was huge, I think that was the first college campus shooting ever. It took me 35 years to enter a voting booth after that.

Lynn

14:05

Jeez, that's insane. I can't believe that's just that blows my mind that people don't even understand, like no basic history.

John

14:08

Well, think of it this way finding it, we think that we can just write to an agent in New York and they will love us. But think of an agent like speed dating. You're going into a singles bar and you're trying to pick up a girl or a guy with a 90 second pitch that says hi, I work for Wall Street, I make lots of money and I have no body fat and I will promise you that I will have a place in the Hamptons within five years. And that's the sort of appeal. It has nothing to do with quality. It has to do with in 30 seconds you have to introduce for a lifelong relationship and they want to love your book because they're going to invest in it. And how can they do that in 90 seconds?

Lynn

14:52

Right. And the other thing is I feel like that way to pitch a book is so superficial. Like it doesn't tell the story of the book, right, like it just says, like this is what my book's about, but it doesn't. It doesn't give the whole context of behind the book and what like, what other things why this book is so great. Right, it just says on the surface level this is what my book looks like.

John

15:14

Absolutely. And in their defense on Amazon, when, when a book is posted, it'll give a synopsis and that synopsis should entice readers to buy that book. Just based on one paragraph, so, and it's just sheer numbers. That book? Just based on one paragraph, so, and it's just sheer numbers. If this agent gets a thousand proposals a week, there's no way, no way that they can look at your proposal and give it what it deserves, because they're still spending their nights reading the one they've already accepted. It's just reality. So, and I started Good Samaritan Home on my own because I felt there was a need and there was nobody to do it. And it the same thing with the publishing company. I said there's a need and now I can publish somebody else's book if I had to, because I can find others like myself who are outsiders. And realistically, what it did was it gave me the freedom, but also I worked my butt off to do this.

Lynn

16:13

It's a lot of work. All right. Well, we're going to take a really quick break right here. When we come back, I'm going to get more John Graham story because I got some more questions for you, John. This is really great, Thank you. All right, future authors. We're back with John Graham and he's telling his story of his book and and his oh my gosh, the story is is crazy. So you said you took three years to write the book and then it was how many years to pitch to 200 publishers.

John

16:53

Well, that's when I, after three years for the first draft, I thought I was done, but it was crap. And you know, looking back at it, you have a tendency to write down rat holes and then you have what this. The rejections actually were quite good because it taught me to tighten, rewrite. I use a phrase from Doug Moreno that says that I continually reedit my book and my life.

17:19

So, we both are a finished draft and that's what it took a lot, a lot of work, I think. All in all, I wrote the book again 24 times. But it wasn't until I hit my editor His name is Ian Tan and he's, ironically, out of Malaysia and we communicated through the email and he caught the story and he taught me how to layer in details Like what does the moon look like? Don't just say the moon was bright, right, but the sliver of gray that's just peaked over the hill and the uh, the birds suddenly were silent at the at the oncoming light, and you could feel the, the uh, moonlight, uh, it's little details that he taught me. You don't say walk into the room, how did they walk in?

18:11

What were they feeling as they walked in?

Lynn

18:14

What were they smelling as they walked in?

John

18:16

Those are the tales. That took me two years, and when it was finally done, we came up with phrases that I never thought possible. That, to me, that's where the real writing comes in, not the first draft, it's the 20th draft where you just you cut your wrist and you bleed all over it. That's, that's hard work to write.

Lynn

18:42

It is hard work and you're a trained journalist, so it's not like you were coming in here with no writing background, right? And then this is and this, and you took a few times to re-edit and re-per and redo it. And then at what point did you decide, like, at what point did you say, you know, I'm just not going to traditional publisher, I'm just going to make my own company, like, like, what was the thought process in your head that you made that decision?

John

19:07

I. I avoided that because self-publishing if you use that term, it makes it sound like you're going to print 500 copies in your garage and sell them all to your friends at every dinner party. And I refuse to do that because I wanted to do traditional, because I felt that working within the structure was important. But the structure simply didn't understand my story. So I had to work. I'm no longer self-publishing, it's independent publishing and I have taken on that mantle, just like I took on the mantle for Good Samaritan Home. And you know, today we have 10 staff and a budget of $2 million annually for Good Samaritan Home, so that's grown from nothing to a viable nonprofit. So the same thing with the book, with enough work and focus and you bring in the right advisors. That's the key.

Lynn

20:00

Yeah, that is really key. And speaking of advisors, you said did you have a? You went to a literary agent or a PR agent that you worked with?

John

20:08

I, I, there was a um, there's a book called uh, was it five, five something for for uh, mari, five requests or?

Lynn

20:17

oh yes, I know which one you mean, yeah.

John

20:19

Murray McBride. It was great story. But there was a trailer for that book that I was so enamored with. I thought the trailer was beautiful, so I called the publisher and I said, who did your trailer? And I contacted her and I said I'd like to talk to you about doing a trailer for me, and it turned out that she fell in love with the book.

Lynn

20:42

Oh amazing.

John

20:42

and it turned out that she fell in love with the book oh amazing. And I've been with her for two years now and she's a publicist who's taught me how to do all of this. So we work in collaboration and it's like I'm back in school again with her. I'm learning so much and right now Amazon ads, for example, are just it's graduate school and in in details that I can't even fathom. At the end of our conversations my mind hurts and that's why right now I can work on a script for a Facebook video and I can do it in 10 minutes and I feel good, but working on an ad or doing the technology to put that video out there hurts my brain.

Lynn

21:29

Yeah, that depends on how tech savvy you are and the tools you use too, because some tools are definitely easier than others for sure.

John

21:36

Oh, my gosh and the tech work even a little thing, like you miss a step and you can't do the next TikTok Studio, for example. I couldn't do the next uh tick tock studio, for example. I couldn't get uh, the, the one editing pattern, to work, so she taught me how to trick it. You, you add a video to it so it perceives what you're posting as a video, so you can edit within the script and then you pull out the video when you're done.

Lynn

22:01

Got it, okay, okay.

John

22:03

Just check technical stuff I would never know.

Lynn

22:05

Yeah yeah, there's definitely a lot of technical stuff in the background. So, when you are so, you published your book and so you. Just when did you decide to submit it for awards? And was the? And what was the purpose behind submitting it for awards? Did you want to? Did you want to just get the recognition for the book, for the sales, or what was the purpose for that?

John

22:25

Not for the sales. I think it was for the recognition, because when you come in with no literary background, if you don't come in from the insider path of publishers who grew up in that world, if you're an outsider, the rejections were so intense that I began to think I was a bad writer. And so when I got an award, and then a second one and the third one, I said you know, I am a good writer because experts have said I'm a good writer, and not just the awards. The reviews coming back from the readers have been phenomenal. Right now I'm running a 4.6 out of five on Amazon.

23:05

That's amazing 93%, four and five ratings.

Lynn

23:10

That's great Congratulations. That's awesome. Besides Amazon, what other places do you like to publish online? Do you publish through Drafted Digital? Did you send your book to the big box stores, like? Where else do you like to publish your book when you're publishing?

John

23:27

Well, I have to lead a lot of this up to. Candice is her name. She is very, very good at this, so we will do promotions. Right now I'm in Kindle Unlimited. You don't make a lot of money. You make a few parts of a penny per page but overall, technically, I've sold hundreds of books that way, because you're you're, what you're doing is, you're getting it out there and we're getting the conversation. So I haven't made money at this book, but I didn't do it for money. I have a, I have a day job. I did it for the conversations about second chances and the current political state has actually made this extremely present.

Lynn

24:09

Yeah.

John

24:11

In fact, that's where my podcasts have taken off. I've done 75 podcasts since August, and it's all about second chances.

Lynn

24:19

Gotcha. And then when you say you've done 75 podcasts, do you have your own podcast, John, or you were interviewing on others' podcasts.

John

24:26

I'm interviewing on others', but it's reached a point. Now we are setting up my own podcast called the Voice of Reason. Awesome Conversations around the Algonquin Roundtable.

Lynn

24:37

I love it, I love it.

John

24:40

Yeah, the idea is that you and I can just talk about issues without yelling at one another, without finger pointing. It's not saying are you a Democrat or are you a Republican, are you a brother or a sister, that's all. We share a common value and a common purpose together.

Lynn

24:56

Yeah, I think that's definitely a much more holistic way to move forward. Absolutely, oh my gosh. So, john, this has been an awesome conversation. You have dropped so many gems and like like really great experiential examples here on today's show, so thank you so much for doing that. Where can people find you and where can people find your book if they want to reach out to you and chat with you and or purchase your book online?

John

25:21

It's actually simple. It's johndavidgramcom. That's my book site and that will link to Amazon. That'll link to Good Samaritan Home. There's even a link where you can contact me with a question. But the best part, if you go to Amazon, you can download three or four chapters for free and just take a look at it.

Lynn

25:41

Awesome, okay, great. And then for people who are watching on YouTube, we'll have that in the description below and if you're listening to this on audio, we'll also we'll have that in the show notes. Well, john, thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your experience. I know this has been super helpful to my listeners who are who? Who may be thinking about a traditional publisher and or just, you know, book marketing information in general, because you've dropped a lot of really great information. So, thank you so much for coming on today to share your experience.

John

26:06

Oh, my pleasure, Anything I can do to help other people, and the key element is do it and redo it, and redo it and redo it. Edit your life as well as your book.

Lynn

26:17

Love it. Thank you so much for that great advice.